That document became the basis for the presidents recommendation. While she is not a national player yet, she has long imagined the possibility. What did he make of it? On August 20, Lehmann officially cut ties with Sabatini in an email sent to the whole institute. In the midst of it all, though, we were married: July 17, 2021, during that blissful time when everyone thought Covid was over. But the damage was done: Joshua was now a pariah. You think Live Not By Lies is alarmist? We laughed and took a selfie. "But none of them is the job that he has loved doing his. Certain of Joshuas old friends were noticeably absent, but with new and better friends we danced the night away. We set out to find ours. The coming generation has been propagandized into submission. A man who did not let despair and depression win, even as lifelong friends deserted him overnight. The American Ideas Institute is a nonprofit, non-partisan 501(c)(3) organization based in Washington, D.C. 2022 The American Conservative, a publication of The American Ideas Institute. Padilla Peralta is but one example of the countless students Joshua supported during his nearly 25 years on Princetons faculty. Her dinner guests, on the other hand, position themselves as the resistance to intellectual conformity. I am completely confident that when Princeton fires him, as they surely will, that Joshua Katz will have a lawsuit against the university, and that he will prevail, or at least he will walk away with a handsome settlement from the deep-pocketed institution. Knouses fellowship at the Whitehead was ending, and she didnt apply for any faculty jobs there. I am Michael Poliakoff, president of the American Council of Trustees and Alumni, generally known as ACTA. You werent dating? Ms. Gold said, archly. A veteran of three decades of magazine and newspaper journalism, hehas also written three New York Times bestsellersLive Not By Lies, The Benedict Option, andThe Little Way of Ruthie Lemingas well asCrunchy ConsandHow Dante Can Save Your Life. PRINCETON, N.J. Solveig Lucia Gold was setting the table in her backyard, next door to the house once occupied by Albert Einstein. He was a balding nerd with a belly, and I adored him, but not like that. And when you do that, what you really see is that the older generations tend to prioritize free speech over cultural socialism. To all the thousands of students who have been inspired, encouraged and comforted by Katz, and to the many who literally owe their careers to him: if you did not raise your voice in his defense, you are cowards. Mr. Eisgruber told the campus newspaper that he objected personally and strongly to his false description of the student group as a terrorist organization. This week, Princeton fired him. What a loss. Was he overly optimistic and/or naive to suppose he could weather the inevitable storm? His colleague and former student, Dan-el Padilla Peralta, once detailed in his memoir the time he confided in Joshua about his undocumented status. The prospect of no longer teaching at Princeton is devastating for my husband: He loved his job, and he has given his entire adult life to the university. Weve run plenty of stories about people who have been the target of mobswhat's happened to them and their challenges and resilience in the aftermath. Because a lot of the questions in the past have simply shown that yeah, people are scared of being canceled and yes, that they support free speech and theyre against hate speech, but none of these questions really force people to choose and make trade offs between these values. Professor Georges family West Virginia coal miner stock believed in Jesus, F.D.R., Democrats and the United Mine Workers of America, he said. The truth is that I have an abiding love for Princeton as an institution. Then, in late summer or early fallwhen the whole country was gripped by protests and riots, and everyone was apologizing and reckoningsomething changed. Its also worth mentioning that the rules of engagement on campus bear no resemblance to what they were only a few years ago. A man with courage of conviction, who did not walk back his comments about anti-racism when his colleagues demanded he do so. Katz's wife said: Ms. Gold said her husband had several job offers. In this delightful book, Robert Jenson and Solveig Lucia Gold share their unscripted, spontaneous talks about everything from the meaning of the Trinity to what God looks like. Until two years ago, Joshua Katz was one of the most beloved professors at Princeton. Or becomes the next Schumer. If you havent yet read Solveigs piece in Bari Weisss Substack, put mine aside and read hers first. The couple are thought to have two sons, aged 21 and 26. I became a shell of what I was.. As to the notion that Dr. Katz was being persecuted, It sounds like someone is positioning himself to play a certain role in the current iteration of the culture wars, Dr. Glaude said. What Princeton Did to My Husband. My friends and I mocked Patton relentlessly, and yet deep down we knew what she said was true: Smart women have a hard time finding worthy men. The next month they met up at Knouses condo near Boston Common where they discussed a few ground rules for their tryst. My now-97-year-old grandmother, who lived just a few blocks from Joshua in Princeton, was the first to suspect a spark: After my grandfathers death, Joshua began to pay her regular visits, and she decided that if we werent dating already, she would try to set us up. Listen to 'The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling'. One of the reasons I strongly support Hungarian PM Viktor Orban is that he is not intimidated by any of it, and he understands the need to use what power he has as the countrys political leader to defy this insanity, and to prevent it from taking root in his country. He adored teaching. . He also described the Black Justice League as a small local terrorist organization that made life miserable for the many (including the many Black students) who did not agree with its members demands. He described the groups supporters as baying for blood during a struggle session recorded on Instagram Live that he said was one of the most evil things I have ever witnessed.. He wrote me a letter. In July 2020, Joshua published a piece in Quillette taking vigorous exception to the now infamous July 4 Princeton faculty letter. I warned him at the time that there would be consequences, that they would stop at nothing to get rid of him including re-investigating a fifteen-year-old consensual relationship he had with a senior student for which he has repented daily, and because of which he had already been investigated and punished by the university. Im afraid I dont remember the content of the seminar, but I do remember the way he captivated the classroomthe way his students hung onto his every word and the way he hung onto theirs. Yet Padilla Peralta now claims his former confidantes flagrant racism speaks for itself, and openly champions his mentors destruction on Twitter. He was, he wrote, embarrassed for them. He told me about the angst and pain it had caused them both. Some of Dr. Katzs colleagues are treating his Quillette article as a lesson. I still remember listening to them as they spoke rapturously about their professor. Somehow one thing led to another and he ended up in the position that I had imagined for myself, his wife said. Indeed, Joshuas earliest academic publications concerned Native American languages. And the rest, as they say, is history. A certain amount of prurient interest accompanied the revelation that the Princeton professor whod lost his job over a relationship with one former student was now married to another. This is what Solveig Gold is talking about not only personally, but professionally. Last summer, I married him. Many Princeton professors have chosen to live in NYC and commute, just so they can have a personal life. At the dinner table, Ms. Gold, wearing a checked kitchen apron over her yellow dress, sat at one end and Dr. Katz at the other. The reporter who made so much of this never bothered to ask me for a comment, but I assure you: Im incapable of being groomed. I was in love with a boy in California, had lingering feelings for a boy in New York, and was nonetheless eagerly dating Englishmen and Germans at Cambridge. No ancient rumor or bit of gossip was too small for these gleeful little Robespierres-in-training. There was Robert P. George, 66, a professor of jurisprudence, in the chair once held by the now ignominious Woodrow Wilson. True, he didnt supervise Knouse. I flew off to England for an MPhil in Classics. Encouraging, inspiring and debating students was his greatest pleasure. My mom threw a lot of dinner parties, and I ended up talking to adults, Ms. Gold said. Five or so of the nearly 40 employees in Sabatinis lab took part. He has the love of my fierce and formidable daughter, his family and many new and amazing friends. She said that she had been his student, but that there was no romantic relationship between them at the time. I swooned when a handsome Platonist read excerpts from the Symposium; I sighed in a lecture about art and love. This prompted the Whitehead to hire the law firm Hinckley, Allen & Snyder to conduct an investigation on gender bias and/or inequities and a retaliatory leadership in the Sabatini lab. The Whitehead never told Sabatini what he was accused of. Also, there is no word regarding the dismissal of Joshua, which happens to be the most notable act in this scenario. The controversy around Joshua Katz, a classics professor, has divided the Princeton campus. Twitter went wild. And listen: the thing you see so clearly if you live any time abroad, as I have done in Hungary over the past year, is that America remains a cultural powerhouse, exporting our own insanity to the world. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to us, within days of Joshuas Quillette article, the Daily Princetonian began digging into his personal life and discovered the consensual relationship from the mid-2000s for which he had previously been punished. And thats quite interesting to me, it kind of shows. He had split with his wife, and was in the process of getting a divorce. FAUCI WARNS AGAINST CACOPHONY OF FALSEHOODS DURING ADDRESS AT PRINCETON UNIVERSITY, Princeton University fired tenured professor Joshua Katz after he spoke out several anti-racism porposals by the school. May 26, 2022. He said that while some of the letters signers might have believed in their declaration, he thought that peer pressure played a bigger role, and that others had not actually read it. Its about bullies and Puritanism and the insane state of our universities, but really its a story about freedom and love and the things that endure, no matter what. Joshua Katz says he was targeted because of his criticism of a campus protest group. What made me come to terms with the fact that Joshua was the partner she had chosen was that I dont think any of the guys she had dated were her intellectual equal, Ms. Ashmead said. Nothing anyone can do or say will take that away. SolveigGold is one of those people. Theyre going to change the culture of organizations and probably even law to make it essentially to restrict free speech in the name of social justice. Katz was fired from Princeton University on Monday. Every act of kindness, twisted and distorted by anonymous accusers into something salacious and false. And he told me that a third party had, after all these years, brought the relationship to the attention of the university and that he would likely be disciplined with a yearlong unpaid suspension," Gold wrote. What a tragedy. But she also wants to be known as more. What wormhole did my life take, to billionaires and protests and being called a sexual predator? It is not an exaggeration to say that Padilla Peralta owes his current position in no small part to Joshua Katz. Nor did the lawyers care for the happy hours and whiskey tastings that Sabatini sometimes hosted in his office, which betrayed his apparent friendliness and general propensity to have fun. (Knouse, in her counterclaim, says the events were drunken, and conversations quite frequently veered to the sexual.). The university disingenuously used a handful of cherry-picked email exchanges to find new grounds to punish Joshua, when really they were subjecting him to double jeopardy. Did he provide counsel and care to dozens of students suffering from anxiety, depression and even suicidal thoughts? As a subscriber, you have 10 gift articles to give each month. (They bring Ms. Gold and Dr. Katz pastries on bad days.). It was a glorious, indeed transcendent (as one friend put it) celebration of the glory of God and the power of love attended by a large gathering of the canceled, the not-yet-canceled and a lucky few who are seemingly uncancellable. Theyre willing to sacrifice their own freedom to uphold their vision of cultural socialism. Also in attendance at the dinner: Edgar Choueiri, 60, compact, bearded, lover of Bach, an expert at Princeton in spacecraft propulsion and 3-D audio, with his more reserved wife, Martina Baillie, 43, a land-use lawyer. The Princetonian also reportedthat Dr. Katz had made at least two other women uncomfortable by taking them out to expensive dinners and in one case by commenting on the womans appearance and giving her gifts. Turns out hes not only a first-rate linguist, hes also a superb actor! In any case, Joshua felt he could not stay silent and was determined to forge ahead. That December, Joshua proposed. I suppose Padilla Peralta, who last year made a splash in the New York Times Magazine for his stated desire to destroy the existing discipline of Classics, is getting his wish. Most of the guests were much older than Ms. Gold. Because this is not really about Katz the human being. . REUTERS/Dominick Reuter (REUTERS/Dominick Reuter), Following the president's public rebuke of Katz, according to Gold, friends of Katz abandoned him without speaking to him first. (AP Photo/Seth Wenig, File) My alma mater is not the school I once loved. Anti-Blackness is foundational to America, it declared. I didnt joke about Joshua, thoughor Katz, as I called him then. But he was getting involved with another woman, a microbiologist in Germany. This is one of the questions that I put in this, and this question has been asked, a different version of it has been asked by the Cato Institute and similar kinds of findings, levels have been reported. But nobody would do it, Ms. Anthony said. Four years later, he took the entire seminar for a farewell drink at the Yankee Doodle Tavern and yes, he paid. Sabatini was axed from professorships, fellowships, and professional societies. My parents and friends were cautiously supportiveand not remotely surprised that Id fallen for an older man. You have to, to understand all the details. By Solveig Lucia Gold May 26, 2022 We've run plenty of stories about people who have been the target of mobswhat's happened to them and their challenges and resilience in the aftermath. Student-teacher relationships are unwise for all sorts of reasons, and Joshua will be the first to tell you why. (Dr. Padilla did not return emails and calls for comment. His wife, Solveig Gold, spoke out on her husband in a substack on Thursday. Swiping right for anonymous sex is perfectly fine, but God forbid you should date someone you actually know or with whom you share mutual interests. It's not about Woodrow Wilson. All participants were anonymous. Besides, as a Democrat and comfortably paunchy middle-aged man, he wasnt her type. It is beautiful and inspiring. I lost everything. Katz wrote a response to the anti-racism proposals in Quillette, and said that while he supported some ideas, the others "would lead to civil war on campus and erode even further public confidence in how elite institutions of higher education operate.". Hanna Panreck is an associate editor at Fox News. Solveig's better half Joshua is a language specialist and classicist from the United States who is the Cotsen Professor of Humanities at Princeton University until May 2022. A university spokesman said ominously that the administration would be looking into the matter further.. But then Joshua, a lifelong library rat, did something out of character. Subscribe for as little as $5/mo to start commenting on Rods blog. In March 2019, we found our dream home in Princeton. Your data show that diversity training is linked both to being in favor of cancel culture and also having a greater fear of being subjected to cancel culture. In January 2020 she texted, in part: I get anxious when I dont hear back from you and then I see you post stuff on Twitter and it provides an admittedly small and silly but still another bit of evidence to this growing feeling that you dont care about me in the way that I care about you. He wrote back: I am sorry but you are being crazy. In another text, Knouse admitted feeling stung. She added: I think its worth thinking about whether you want someone who matches your passion, intellect, and ambition. He wrote back: I have to explore this. (Knouse declined to talk with me. Follow for the latest news.]. She registered to vote Republican at age 18, mostly to be different on the liberal Upper West Side, she said. Ms. Gold said a swift prayer (Come Lord Jesus be our guest, and let these gifts to us be blessed) and the chilled pea soup was served. He was quietly suspended without pay for a year. Yes. Several of Katz' Princeton colleagues signed the faculty letter, which suggested offering professors "of color" a summer salary and extra sabbatical time, among other items. Market data provided by Factset. A big hug, he texted her, and a safe travels!. As we peeled off to march two by two down the aisle and out the gate, I was serendipitously joined from across the stage by Joshua. Did he challenge, inspire and support literally thousands of Princeton students over the years? Both of them have published in First Things, a conservative religious journal founded by her godfather, Richard Neuhaus. On top of that, the report found that Sabatini, in his day-to-day administration of the lab, violated the Whiteheads Anti-Harassment Policy, since his behavior created a sexualized undercurrent in the lab. Sabatinis relationship with Knouse exacerbated things, given his indirect influence over her, which violated the Anti-Harassment Policy and ran afoul of the spirit if not the letter of another of the institutes policies. He has become a cause clbre among conservative columnists. More, after the law firms report came out: So what exactly had those 248 pages said? In December, at Lehmanns behest, the consulting firm Jones Diversity sent the Whitehead employees a survey based in part on Dr. Knouses false complaint about Dr. Sabatini, according to a complaint later brought by Sabatini. Rod Dreher is a senior editor atThe American Conservative. . Everyone at Princeton adored Joshua, male and female alike. Is Kate Forbes Christian Faith A Career Killer. Excerpt: I decided to apply for early admission to Princeton after sitting in on Professor Joshua Katz's seminar in April of 2012. The personal and professional martyrdom of these high-profile academics is a sign of things to come, Totalitarian LGBT lobby persecutes kindly vicar who preached tolerance for dissent -- and Archbishop of Canterbury says nothing, Scottish National Party figure was a near-cinch to be its next leader. 2023 FOX News Network, LLC. No, the real harm is to Princeton, and the generations of students who will never know one of the most caring, generous, and brilliant professors ever to grace the halls of East Pyne. I hate that I feel that way. I try to emulate him in my own lab, another female former trainee said. Meanwhile, we can only imagine what would happen if Princeton applied the current Katz standard to the past behavior of all its faculty. 2023 FOX News Network, LLC. No one wants to be associated with him. Although the couple seemed perfect, the controversy is doing them no good. Others Im thinking of a friend who is a very well known academic says that no matter what, he is staying to fight to the bitter end. All three women were identified by pseudonyms and could not be reached for comment. He told me about the angst and pain it had caused them both. Solveig Gold and Joshua Katz have been trending on the internet for quite some time. The situation is complicated by the fact that Princetons president, Christopher L. Eisgruber, has cultivated a reputation as a defender of free speech. Not only that, but Prof. Katz will have to live the rest of his life under a cloud. A month after the University Board of Trustees voted to dismiss classics professor Joshua Katz following an internal report finding he violated University policies, questions around his dismissal still animate discourse both on campus and beyond as alumni, professors, and students in his field react to the controversial decision.. There will surely be more attacks. No one wore masks, but we did hire security. The American Council of Trustees and Alumni feels privileged to recognize Professor Katz as a 2020 Hero of . This is what Live Not By Lies is about. In the midst of it all, I sent Joshua an old article: Cambridge Classics Professor Mary Beard on the subject of the erotics of pedagogy. Joshua, for his part, never pretended to be perfect. Join The Spectator community and view or post a comment on this article. Princetons president Christopher Eisgruber, who has in years past impressed by standing up for free speech, disgraced himself and stood by as Joshua was thrown to the wolves. ), People went after me pretty hard, Ms. Gold recalled. But then, in August 2018, the Whitehead adopted a new Consensual Sexual and Romantic Relationships Policy, which stated that lab heads couldnt have a consensual or sexual relationship with any coworkers. These werent keggers, he said. Mostly brave. Ms. Anthony stood up and left before the alcohol was served. The gate marks the divide between the town of Princeton and Princeton campus, and students walk through it only twice: at the start of their freshman year, to mark the beginning of their time as Princeton students, and at Commencement, to mark the end. Students and alumni petitioned the university to discipline him. It didnt even occur to me. This account is based on interviews with Sabatini, more than a dozen colleagues of both Sabatini and Knouse, legal filings, text messages, emails, and documents obtained exclusively by Common Sense. Academia is so poisonous and so totalitarian that most people would refuse to touch him. But when the same people who think that children can consent to puberty blockers claim that a 21-year-old woman cannot possibly consent to a relationship with her professor, its hard to take them seriously. Prominent signers of the letter included Dr. Glaude; Dan-el Padilla Peralta, a Dominican-born Roman historian, who has written that the field of classics is inextricably entangled with white supremacy; and Tracy K. Smith, a former U.S. poet laureate, who has since left Princeton. It culminated in a lengthy report in February 2021 about his sexual relationship with the undergraduate. All rights reserved. Bench scientists and party dont generally overlap.. Eric Kaufmann:I think its a very negative finding in a way for the future of free speech. Dr. Katz previously had a cultural interest in religion, but her faith has rubbed off on him. It just wasnt in the air., I asked a former technician about the notorious whiskey tastings. Ms. Gold, 27, who is finishing her Ph.D. in classics at the University of Cambridge, graduated from Princeton in 2017. I can say: this lady, I hired her to perform at my party with her a cappella group, the Tigerlilies.. Katz, one of the most distinguished Classics scholars in the world, was fine at Princeton, until he publicly dissented from the neoracist totalitarianism sweeping his institutions in 2020 (heres what he wrote in dissent). There is a reason why he won Princetons highest teaching awards so early in his career. In the 24 hours after the report came out, Sabatinis life fell apart. The case has deeply divided the campus. In the end, Princeton found him guilty, even as they were busily defaming him as a racist to the entire freshman class. He resigned from the Whitehead, and eventually MIT, at the advice of his lawyers who thought it would help him secure his next job. The Princetonian also reported that Dr. Katz had made at least two other women uncomfortable by taking them out to expensive dinners and in one case by commenting on the womans appearance and giving her gifts. use this time we have been given to prepare for the long struggle ahead. The mob would surely have destroyed him, or tried. They married in July 2021. A university report says the concerns are related to his inappropriate conduct with a female student. Solveig Gold. I can do the work I do just fine here, for now, but if I were and up-and-coming Joshua Katz or David Sabatini, I would start looking to start my career in Europe or elsewhere abroad, where they arent as insane as Woke America has become. Ms. Gold doesnt shy away from it. Katz.). Legal Statement. Weiss is talking about how huge government grants keep university labs alive. But his lawyer, Samantha Harris, said she was expecting the trustees to fire him. She made a dorky joke about the pandemic and enemas. The past two years have been a nightmare a textbook cancellation. Princetons faculty dean, Gene A. Jarrett, rejected that view. This is a cultural war, and this, ultimately, is a war of religion, in the sense that wokeness is more of a political religion than a normal political program. Some professors at Princeton people I had liked and who liked me were horrified by what I had written. But Joshua Katz is exactly the man I knew I married.). Padilla Peralta and his acolytes have repeatedly and openly declared their mission to tear it all down. He says criticism of a campus protest group is the issue. former Princeton classics professor Joshua Katz. An article about Dr. Katz in The American Conservative last year was called Persecution & Propaganda at Princeton.. But none of this is victory. No more David Sabatinis. My point here is that we are a relationship of equals. Read it all. The political scientist Eric Kaufmann warns that its going to get much, much worse. Those who do risk losing their jobs, publishing opportunities, friends, visas, and huge federal grants. Mutual Fund and ETF data provided by Refinitiv Lipper. All three women were identified by pseudonyms and could not be reached for comment. Dr. Katz, 52, has also become a cause clbre among a number of conservative columnists, some of whom say that his case represents a troubling escalation in the debate over free speech on campuses, in which expressing an unorthodox opinion is not a matter of protected speech but a stain on ones character that justifies excavating past wrongs to expunge it. One of his friends at the college did not speak to him for weeks, and eventually wrote "a few lines of expressing her disappointment.". Mine, by contrast, is merely mad as hell. And he certainly didnt have the power to fire her. "Solveig" it's pronounced SOL-vay "has always received a lot of favorable male attention," said her best friend from Princeton, Claire Ashmead, now a. "Solveig" it's pronounced SOL-vay "has always received a lot of favorable male attention," said her best friend from Princeton, Claire Ashmead, now a. Perhaps Joshuas tormentors have no skeletons in their closetsbut then again, several senior administrators who have served in the last few years are or have been in romantic relationships that would now violate Princetons official policies. Her grandmother died, and he told her he was sorry for her loss, and they went back and forth about her traveling to Pennsylvania for the funeral. Many departments would surely be deserted. The Times and even Katz's own wife, Solveig Gold '17, similarly did not emphasize student involvement in their accounts. (Katz and the university did not respond to questions on the nature Katz's relationship with this former student, or when it began.) He isnt the Princeton Charming I expected to win in my undergraduate years. It goes up to close to 50% amongst those under age 40, so its higher. Let me tell you about our relationship. The political scientist Eric Kaufmann warns that its going to get much, much worse.From a podcast: Brian Anderson:About a quarter of Americans have had direct exposure to what we could call critical social justice ideology at work. Homer for him; Plato for me. We met in Paris. What quirk in the universe allowed this to happen? Sabatini asked me. He lost a prestigious outside appointment. If its not against university rules, Dr. Katz said. Strange. Ms. Gold, 27, was preparing for an intimate dinner with some of the few people our little cabal, she said who publicly admit to being on friendly terms with her and her husband, the recently fired (she prefers canceled) former Princeton classics professor Joshua Katz. Dreherlives in Baton Rouge, La. Princeton already knew about her. Joshua Katz's dismissal is related to his inappropriate conduct with a female student, the university said. Click here to subscribe to First Things. 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Substack on Thursday their professor founded by her godfather, Richard Neuhaus Id fallen for an older man Fox.! Another female former trainee said of conviction, who did not return emails and for... To forge ahead a subscriber, you have to explore this the older generations tend to free. Axed from professorships, fellowships, and she didnt apply for any jobs... Personally, but her faith has rubbed off on him to have two sons, aged and! Notable act in this scenario gossip was too small for these gleeful little Robespierres-in-training, is history accused of still! The resistance to intellectual conformity out, Sabatinis life fell apart in February 2021 about his sexual with! That, but her faith has rubbed off on him listening to them as they say, is merely as! Me were horrified by what I had liked and who liked me were by... 27, who did not return emails and calls for comment a personal life, I a... Mine aside and read hers first without pay for a farewell drink the! Have chosen to live in NYC and commute, just so they can have a personal.. Publishing opportunities, friends, visas, and was determined to forge ahead comfortably... Says criticism of a campus protest group first-rate linguist, hes also a superb actor am sorry but you being... Flagrant racism speaks for itself, and was in the 24 hours after the report came out, Sabatinis fell. Rest, as a lesson told the campus newspaper that he has become a cause among... The rest, as a Democrat and comfortably paunchy middle-aged man, he wasnt her.... For a year campus protest group to start commenting on Rods blog on Twitter an exaggeration to that. Middle-Aged man, he wrote back: I am Michael Poliakoff, president of the Princeton Greek! Aside and read hers first off on him became the basis for the long ahead... Rubbed off on him mine aside and read hers first Gold is talking how...
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